Tuesday
Mar042008
Love It Or Hate It? - TWiT 134
Tuesday, March 4, 2008 at 10:47AM 
There have been numerous comments about TWiT 134: Pave The Cowpaths on our private donors forum, most of them critical of the subject matter, one of our guests, an irrelevant discussion about audio issues in the middle, and my recommendation of a book by Orson Scott Card. Here's the response I posted on the forum. I wanted to post it here, too, to give you all a chance to comment.
I knew some of you would hate the show - and some of you would love it (far more lovers on Twitter and Pownce than here, not surprisingly). Unlike mainstream media, I don't make programming decisions based on what "most people" will like. That's the strength of this new medium - it's not ratings driven, it's idea driven. Sometimes TWiT isn't going to match your expectations. There are people who want it to be a TechTV Alumni fest, others who want it to be a tech news roundtable. It will be those sometimes, but I program TWiT as a show that reflects the most interesting and important issues in tech, as I see them. I don't mean to sound defensive here - I just want you to understand what I'm aiming for. The beauty of the new Internet media is that there's something for everybody. My shows are always going to reflect my interests. That's why I make 'em! If you share my interests, you'll enjoy (or at least appreciate) what I'm creating. If not, there are lots of other people doing really great programming, too. You have so many choices these days - let a million flowers bloom! I thought Winer was great - very, very insightful. If you can't get past his voice, listen to his ideas. Twitter et al. are new net memes that are as interesting, and I think, as significant, as RSS, but like RSS I don't expect everyone to get it right away. Dave is one of the few people I know who understand this stuff at a very deep level. As for the praise for Orson Scott Card - I love his work; I hate his politics. But that's no reason not to read or recommend him. I read many, many authors whose politics I abhor. If Card's homophobia or neanderthal agenda crept into his novels I'd not recommend him, but I can't think of a single incident where they have. If you can, please let me know and I'll stop recommending him. I do apologize for not editing out the audio issues talk - that was just an oversight. I certainly didn't mean to leave it in. I agree it wastes your time - very sorry.
Let's use the ratings system for this post to reflect your rating for the show. Thanks!
tagged TWiT, Twitter, dave winer, orson scott card, pownce in Blog
TWiT, Twitter, dave winer, orson scott card, pownce in Blog
Reader Comments (169)
Leo,
Like I said inside the forums, While I thought Dave was a bit "FULL OF HIMSELF and Condescending" I would never complain about TWIT itself.
I listened and while I was not into the guest, I learned from him as well about RSS, so your effort was accomplished at least with me.
Heck I am even going to donate again tonight! Why? Because you listened to us and posted a response to us.
Thanks!
Da-Chief
I've been listening for a few years now, never really commented, but I subscribed to your RSS feed through google reader a while back, and just got this note.
I really enjoyed the show. I thought it was very neat how the topics just meandered through everything, and landed on where it did. Very interesting show. I like it when it sticks to in depth discussion on a few topics, than alot of topics getting touched on. The tangents are the best part!
I was surprised nobody mentioned this Card politics, but you're right, enders game was amazing, and I can still read it to this day.
As for complaints about it, I really don't see why anybody would say something negative about it. I like the "audio issues" left in, i like the insider, geeky talk. I love the way ads are put in the show, so it remains free for everyone. Keep up the good work Leo!
Leo - I enjoy TWIT and your network because of you, the wide variety of guests, their insight, personality etc.
Although i do not lean to the liberal side of things as you and most of your comrades do, I thoroughly enjoy TWIT, MacBreak Weekly, the radio show, etc.
I don't think you need to defend yourself here. There will always be people who do not like topics, people, dvorak dot org slash blog, etc... They are entitled to their opinion, but as you said its your show!
Keep on doing what you do Leo. The most recent TWIT was very insightful. People do not appreciate what they don't understand, and if they are not willing to learn, then of course they are going to scream and whine. Complaining about something that is free is a waste it seems to me.
Like all your shows Leo, I give it 5 stars. I tune in to podcasts to listen to what is going on, not to hear what I like to hear. If that was the case I'd listen to more books from Audible.com....:)
Like Twit, turned it off after a few minutes of winer, I didnt find him entertaining or interesting and wondered if you had researched your choices of guests. But like the others said, each to his own, and I went over and watched Cranky Geeks instead.
I dont think you ever cater to a mass audience, if you did the Lab would have the right balance of PC vrs mac.
I don't use either twitter or Pownce, but I really found that topic very interesting.
I think I have to agree with the other posters that said Winer was a bit of a Douche, but I see no problem with having the odd guest that I don't particularly like. I am not sure why you gave him a pass on Johns suggestion of getting him and Adam on. He effectively said that Adam has rewritten history (as many of us believe) but was then unwilling to back that up.
As for Orson Scott Card, I disagree with you that just because his politics does not enter into his work there is no problem in Buying his books. You are ultimately putting money in the pocket of a Bigot. For me this is where piracy becomes a morally good thing ;)
I listened to the last macbreak weekly (79) and while I know Leo Laporte's politics are very extreme, I was still a bit surprised that he smeared an author like orson scott card. I think that you should apologize to the author and take a step back to reevaluate what brought you to this point.
Lots of comments already ... I'll keep mine short.
Wil Harris, even though he didn't get to speak much, and the brief talk about twitter saved the show. As others have mentioned, I was tempted to switch to another podcast halfway through the show but resisted due to my love for TWiT.
first of all - thanks for u're hard work - u turn every week into geek(fest) ;)
dave was not bitter, he might be cranky geek ;) but do we mind? :)
what he was talking about, even though it is adv. magic of the internets, it is in my opinion, one of the most important technologies around. rss and its capabilities is what gives me internet back again. i'm again in charge of the content i see in a very fast and efficient way. rss, especially directions that it is going in is one of the most interesting and important tech issues now. dave was harsh, but why do people see that without realizing how deep dave's knowlege go.
I'd rather have a show that challenged my thoughts around technology and proposed new and interesting points of view.
How do you find new things if you don't open your mind to alternative points of view?
As to OSC, I hope that all the people that object to him also look long and hard into the personal lives of all of their authors, musicians and other entertainers and listen/read/view only the ones that fit their world view and politics.
You have the right to speak your mind, you also have the right to switch off if what you hear/see offends you.
I thought the show was outstanding. It was a deep, thoughtful discussion about how we use some very specific technologies, and about some of the reasons we do so. I found this to be one of the more interesting discussions you've had on TWiT, and not because Dvorak was so quiet. - Tim
I have to agree with most of the folks that said that all in all it was a good show. The content was interesting and the topics where current. And while there are a few folks out there that felt it was a sleeper or boring, I would not go that far. The biggest problem with the show can be attributed to a single guest. I like so many others I had never heard the man speak before and while it seemed like he had a cold ( you can clearly hear a loud sniffle on the recording) his overall demeanor and tone was that of a self centered poppas a--. He seemingly refused to hear another point of view and on more than one occasion flat out talked down to the other panelists. Yes the man has an impressive resume, but that doesn’t give him the right to belittle anyone else’s opinion.
I have been a long time listener and just because there was one bad guest that made a show a little less interesting or more annoying, doesn’t mean that I would stop listening and supporting your work. If that was case shows like those on a certain Cable news station would go off the air in short order.
So if you feel the need to rock the boat than go ahead and rock it, I have a life vest. �
Keep up the good work.
Jim in Doylestown
Dave Winer is brilliant, but not good at communicating (as most geeks are). Anybody who's every listened to him would already know that. It doesn't mean that he shouldn't be on TWIT. He is an important part of the tech community, and therefore should be part of TWIT.
I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in pownce or twitter...but I loved the episode. TWIT works best when there are very diverse personalities involved, and this one had several. Dave and John may both be cranky, but from a different point of view. Wil Harris and Steve Gillmor round out the diversity.
I image most (not all) of the nay-sayers are under 30, and are looking for a "TechTV Alumni fest".
My only complaint was that the theme at the end was cut short again. :( I don't know what it is, but it's my favorite jingle. Can I download it? I'll pay you a dollar. :)
Hey Leo,
I just wanted to say I really enjoyed this episode. It's nice to have a change of pace. Great stuff. Also, it seems likely that this episode is at least partly the reason why the http://www.slakinski.com/2008/03/04/releasing-ipx-python-code-as-is/" rel="nofollow">iPodderX source was released yesterday.
Leo, I do feel sorry for you for having to put up with people whining over Winer's whining. I think he's an ass myself, his Twitter feed is the most unbearable mess I've ever seen, but I respect him as a pioneer in blogging and podcasting.
I learned a lot from TWiT134 and I hope you occasionally have this kind of discussion again. It's a shame your ADD tech snob audience dosen't agree. Keep up the great work!
I would have loved to be able to listen to this and learn some new stuff. I just couldn't listen to someone how sounded like he was trying to start a fight. Part of being an adult is not having to listen to people being a jerk, no matter how useful their information might be.
Hi Leo,
I thought about switching off - however I am so glad I didn't. As an ex-techie trying to learn again quickly, it was a real eye opener.
Over the last few weeks, your network is proving to me that it is possible for individuals to publish content as they wish not for a huge market but for a dedicated niche.
Keep up the good work
Hi Leo,
I've been listening to your shows sporadically since you started TWIT, and on a weekly and continual basis for around a year or so now. I really appreciate your good work and everything,
I do often feel like there are some personalities on the show that I don't really care for. I used to really hate to listen to Dvorak, but I've gone from simply accepting him to looking forward to hearing his opinions. I usually don't agree with him, but I do honestly want to hear opinions that I may not agree with. It opens up my palette for ideas.
This is much of the case with Winer. His personality got on my nerves, and I hardly agreed with anything he said. But that's just fine. TWIT wouldn't be interesting if it were always the same guys sitting around and humming the same tune. It is and should be different from time to time. The Coulton episode was indeed different, and most unarguably, awesome. Different might not always equal good, but I'd rather you try to shake things up and not have it work out every time than doing the same thing week in week out.
I'm somewhat interested in Pownce and Twitter, and for the most part enjoyed the topic. It went a little long, but I don't mind too much. Sometimes the show doesn't always cover my favorite topics, but whatever. Again, it opens up my palette and sometimes introduces me to things I find myself becoming interested in.
As for the Card recommendation, I totally agree with your points and have nothing to add to it. As for the audio issues, yeah that was pretty annoying. But stuff happens sometimes. Not a big deal.
Again, thanks a bunch for the good work. If you do skim across this comment (which wouldn't offend me one bit, I know you are busy) and take any one thing from it, just know that many of your listeners, including me, would prefer you to try different things, have different voices, and cover different topics from time to time just to shake things up.
Leo,
My grandfather says, "If you do something that is smart and intelligent, be prepared for people to not understand you."
I liked episode 134. I don't really understand why some listeners are upset by the content. I guess they need to understand that TWiT is a conversation about technology from industry experts. The views and opinions on the show can be controversial. You shouldn't have to apologize for anything or anyone. It's your show. So please carry on podcasting pioneer! Remember, you told Amber on Net@Night that you'd be the last one to turn the lights out when the internet disappears (or some similar phrase). Also, don't worry about the audio issue. Adam Curry has made the same error on the Daily Source Code, but it seems to make his podcast more personal and human. Honestly, DSC fans love it when he makes a mistake. 78g.
Note: 78g means fan. It doesn't mean I am going to send you seventy-eight gold pieces. :)
For what it is worth, I was really looking forward to listening to this episode and enjoyed it tremendously when I did finally listen to it today. The API discussion was pretty interesting even though I wouldn't have a clue what to do with an API and it got me thinking about Pownce and Twitter again.
As it happens, I use just about all of these services in a particular way that makes sense to me although I haven't been using Pownce all that much till now. This episode inspired me to use it a bit more and find a place for it in my overactive social media experience.
Thanks for the show!
I LEARNED something from this show.
Yeah...it had some gritty stuff... but the sandwich as a whole was good.
THANKS LEO FOR NOT CATERING TO THE LCD.
I lean right politically, so If I chose to turn off, unsubscribe from, or purge my library of everyone I disagreed with, I'd be able to move into a much smaller apartment and put half my external hard drives on eBay.
I love TWiT, Daily GizWiz, Net@nite, Windows Weekly, and even MacBreak Weekly (though I don't own a Mac) because Leo is likeable. I know our politics don't match, but it's rare that Leo says anything so jarring that I take offense. His comments about OSC on "MacBreak Weekly" did offend me.
I don't get this trend where people think "I disagree with his politics, so I don't want to talk with him." I heard Dave Winer on TWiT, disliked most of what I heard...and promptly bookmarked his page and friended him on Pownce. Disagreement should be the START of the conversation, not the death of it. There was a time when we could at least be civil with people we disagreed with, however vehemently. The trick is to find things we CAN talk about, come to agreement on. If some issues are irreconcilable, just ignore them.
It's not going to stop me listening, but I confess I was disappointed by the Card fallout. I don't agree with a lot of Card's politics either. But I'd still jump at the chance to talk with him, because he's an interesting guy who's an excellent writer, and he's worked in tech. I can't believe Leo couldn't have an excellent show featuring Card, if he chose to. I hope he would reconsider.
Hey Leo, you are the greatest, keep up the good work ol'boy!!!!
Love the show! Wouldn't change a thing!
I listened to the program and found nothing offensive or irritating. Mr Winer's appearance again on your show will not prevent me from listening to it.