Tuesday
Mar042008
Love It Or Hate It? - TWiT 134
Tuesday, March 4, 2008 at 10:47AM 
There have been numerous comments about TWiT 134: Pave The Cowpaths on our private donors forum, most of them critical of the subject matter, one of our guests, an irrelevant discussion about audio issues in the middle, and my recommendation of a book by Orson Scott Card. Here's the response I posted on the forum. I wanted to post it here, too, to give you all a chance to comment.
I knew some of you would hate the show - and some of you would love it (far more lovers on Twitter and Pownce than here, not surprisingly). Unlike mainstream media, I don't make programming decisions based on what "most people" will like. That's the strength of this new medium - it's not ratings driven, it's idea driven. Sometimes TWiT isn't going to match your expectations. There are people who want it to be a TechTV Alumni fest, others who want it to be a tech news roundtable. It will be those sometimes, but I program TWiT as a show that reflects the most interesting and important issues in tech, as I see them. I don't mean to sound defensive here - I just want you to understand what I'm aiming for. The beauty of the new Internet media is that there's something for everybody. My shows are always going to reflect my interests. That's why I make 'em! If you share my interests, you'll enjoy (or at least appreciate) what I'm creating. If not, there are lots of other people doing really great programming, too. You have so many choices these days - let a million flowers bloom! I thought Winer was great - very, very insightful. If you can't get past his voice, listen to his ideas. Twitter et al. are new net memes that are as interesting, and I think, as significant, as RSS, but like RSS I don't expect everyone to get it right away. Dave is one of the few people I know who understand this stuff at a very deep level. As for the praise for Orson Scott Card - I love his work; I hate his politics. But that's no reason not to read or recommend him. I read many, many authors whose politics I abhor. If Card's homophobia or neanderthal agenda crept into his novels I'd not recommend him, but I can't think of a single incident where they have. If you can, please let me know and I'll stop recommending him. I do apologize for not editing out the audio issues talk - that was just an oversight. I certainly didn't mean to leave it in. I agree it wastes your time - very sorry.
Let's use the ratings system for this post to reflect your rating for the show. Thanks!
tagged TWiT, Twitter, dave winer, orson scott card, pownce in Blog
TWiT, Twitter, dave winer, orson scott card, pownce in Blog
Reader Comments (169)
I thought the show was thought provoking and I actually liked the dynamic that having Dave Winer in the group created. He's an incredibly knowledgeable person and continues to be a trailblazer in this industry. He's totally "outside the box" and that makes him interesting. I hope you have him back.
You really got me thinking about the Twitter/Pownce thing...when I first came across Pownce, my first impression was - "Well, I'm already on Twitter, why should I switch?" Maybe it's the whole VHS/Betamax debate all over again - the best technology is not always the most popular. I think the reason that people are drawn to Twitter is because it's a little voyeuristic - like peeking in people's windows except they don't mind if you look.
Loved the show - keep 'em coming!
Maybe I’m too old for SMS and too dumb understand the “Simple� part of the whole RSS conversation. But after the listening to the show, I finally broke down and subscribed to Twitter and Twitterrific. Following the real-time interactions between the idea shapers of the web is quite entertaining. It almost feels as personal as podcasting or radio.
Leo,
Great show. As far was Dave Winer goes, people are blinded by how they feel about him and was not listening to what he had to say. I thought it was fascinating to hear from the creator of RSS.
As far as OSC, I've read eight of his books, enjoyed all of them, and had no idea of his politics. But you're right, his politics is no reason to not read such excellent works of literature.
Finally, you wouldn't be where you are by catering to anyone other than yourself. We like you for you and your interests, and your entertainment value. There may be more socially conscious podcasts or more informative podcast about tech, but we listen to you for you. To paraphrase the immortal Ray Charles, just do what you do, baby.
I think that all your shows are great. I like the guests you have on the show and the thought provoking conversations. Keep up the good work.
I never complain about the content of your programs or the guests. And, I tend to laugh when your guests become a little cantankerous.
TWIT is always interesting, different and thought-provoking!
Many thanks.
Hi Leo,
I listen to all your shows and like all of them.
I also listen to MacBreak Weekly even though I don't have any Macs.
I am not on any networking sites, but really enjoyed this week's discussion on pownce vs twitter and liked this show.
Thank you for all the work you put on to make my commutation enjoyable and informative. Keep up the good work
Regards
manoj.
Dave was a bit of a tool, but the show was still great.
Loved the episode. No, I wouldn't want Winer every week, but he has some fascinating ideas. And I do think that Card would be an outstanding guest.
One thing that I thought was interesting was the discussion about the ultimate podcatching device, though no one mentioned how close the Sony PSP was to the specifications mentioned. It can download enclosures directly to the device and can connect via wifi to any available network. It even has scheduled download capbilities. If Sony, or the homebrew community, would just add in a simple recording component, it would be exactly the device that Winer described. We'd all just need some larger pockets.
As others have already suggested: I appreciate your attempts to try and do new things with the show(s). Some will work well, others won't. They may do well with some listeners and not others. So be it.
I'm one of those who loved the Jonathan Coulton show but hated Dave Winer's appearance. Both were "challenging" to the format; both were my first introduction to these guys. Coulton won me over with his discussions of music production in the web age; Winer lost me with his attitude, even though he had interesting things to say. I don't begrudge you trying to reach out to either of these guys; just know that they'll elicit very different experiences.
As for Orson Scott Card: I'm one of your gay listeners, and while Card's politics have kept me from reading his work, I don't expect that to carry over to anyone else. Now that you're aware of the issues, do what you will with him and don't worry too much about it.
Thanks, as always, for all you do! We appreciate all the blood, sweat, and tears you put into the shows.
Leo,
I have not had a chance to listen to the whole show, but have listened to most of the parts that people seemingly have taken issue with. I don't really understand why. The show is "This Week in Tech". "Tech" anymore is a wide-ranging term, and encompasses concepts and ideas that will be strange, unfamiliar, and/or unpopular to many. I am glad that I have a place to go to be exposed to these concepts though. Like a lot of folks, I thought Dave was annoying and overreacted to things, but that is just how some people are wired.
I am a pastor, and I know what it is like to get criticized when someone disagrees with something you have said or done. I doubt this is the first time you have faced this kind of response from some people, but no matter how long you do this kind of work, putting yourself and your ideas in the public square, the criticism never gets easier to hear. I just wanted to let you know that I appreciate and enjoy hearing from you and the people you have on your show each week. Thank you.
I just finished the show and thought it was great. This type of show is why I listen to TWIT. Only Leo can get a group together like this and get this type of discussion going. Keep up the good work.
Personally I don't feel an apology is necessary.
Leo provides a number off quality shows that range in topics and participants. I'm thankful to have shows as it more than filled the void I felt when "The Screen Savers" went off the air. Not only has Podcasting filled that role, but its great to have Leo & Co. on TWiT, Macbreak Weekly, Windows Weekly, et al.
I never realized that "The Woz" episode was so hated. I was quite entertained by him actually.
Leo,
I enjoyed this episode very much. I love to hear differing opinions on your show and it's interesting to hear other perspectives. While I really like having some of the more recognizable voices (Dvorak is love!) it's also great to hear something new.
Leo,
I just love twit. Every monday morning I'm exited cause my conmute is not going to be boring at all. I think you, and John, and Patrick (I miss him) are great entertainers and also great journalists.
But last twit... I have to be honest, it was the first time I felt like ending the podcast in the middle. Veeeeeery boring!!!
Just keep up the good work, if it's one boring podcast in 134, I can live with it.
I enjoyed TWiT 134 especially the moment John C. cut in to mention the fact he usually interrupts discussions like the one Steve and Dave were having. Just before John said that, I was thinking the exact same thing: usually TWiT discussions and their tangents are entertaining, but I get lost when the discussion gets too technical. However, I do love to hear ideas from people who are passionate and knowledgeable about about technology, and TWiT 134 fit that bill.
Dave Winer is, for many, a polarizing figure, but I admire that you mix up TWiT from time to time, and this was a good example. Yes, there was a bit of inside baseball at times, but that's true of any good podcast -- and I guess I'm inside enough that the baseball made sense to me.
I knew as soon as you announced Dave (and, to a lesser extent, Steve) as a guest that some people would hate the show out of reflex. That's too bad. Whether you agree with their ideas or their approach or not, there's value in their thinking.
And I'm sure John appreciated being the third most cranky guy on TWiT for a change.
P.S. Get yourself an episode with Dave Winer, Steve Wozniak, AND Jason Calacanis on it and you can set a new record for Most Hated TWiT show.
Many moons ago I think it was Marshall McLuhan who said something like, "We create the future by looking through the rear-view mirror." I've often thought of this as we continue to try to represent current or old ideas in new media.
Every now and again someone looks forward without looking backwards and it's a privilege to have been part of the discussion, listening and thinking, then discussing it with colleagues and friends.
Needless-to say I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion, as I do most of them, however there was something unique about this episode and while I don't use Twitter or Pownce, I enjoy the opportunities of RSS. The insight and struggle as we continue to give birth to this new medium is what it's all about to me. I was enthralled by the episode.
My location in the world means I doubt I'd have the opportunity to hear and participate in such an event, and if I did I'd have to travel for 14 or more hours. Being part of this content space without having to dedicate that much time is a "no brainer" for me. Fantastic.
Hey Leo OR WHOEVER MAINTAINS THE SHOW NOTES FOR THE RADIO SHOWS,
I have a suggestion: at the bottom of every show notes page, simply put a list of all the links that were mentioned on the show. I was in the car and couldn't write down one that I particularly needed. I came back to the show date and it wasn't listed anywhere in the show notes - bummer dude!
Thanks for a GREAT & POWERFUL SHOW!
Deb
Leo,
The first thing I do on Monday morning is put TWIT on my mp3 player to take to the gym. This show was a little different but I really enjoyed it because it exposed me to some new ideas and new people.
Please keep up the good work.
p.s.
After listening to your podcasts, I think I'm probably the only one in your audience who doesn't have an iPod but my $10 mp3 player from CVS works just fine.
Hey Leo,
Big fan. Like some of the other fans, I too didn't like Dave Winer, and at times he did piss me off. That said, I also learned a lot from this TWiT and while it may not have been as entertaining as some of the other, it did make me look at come things is a different light.
If we just tuned out everything we didn't agree with, then when would we ever learn anything. Thanks for doing what you do. It makes the long car rides feel like short ones.
Chris
I found the discussion quite mind-numbing after a while and ended up skipping to the end. I can't even really remember what it was about, just that Dave Winer was rambling borderline incoherently about how his stuff was better than iTunes.
Let's find some more interesting and more eloquent guests for the next show.
Leo,
You keep programming as you see fit. I support you either way. Some people, while pompous, still have much to contribute (looking at you mr winer). I'll keep coming back to TWIT over and over again. Thanks for bringing us great content.
I listen to TWiT and MacBreak Weekly on MUNI to and from work, and I really enjoyed this episode. There can be a monotony when you're hearing from the same voices every week. I thought that Steve G stood up to Dave W, which helped give the episode some balance. Overall, I liked it.
However, I was also someone who Twittered to you about being disappointed in the Orson Scott Card recommendation. I agree with you that his work shouldn't be banned or kept out of libraries.
I read most of his books when I was growing up, and even hung out on the OSC space on AOL in the early 90s. And like Donna Minkowitz in her 2000 (!) Salon.com interview with Orson Scott Card (seriously, go google it), I've also struggled to come to terms with how a man whose work was so important to me as a teenager could end up having personal views that are so repugnant to me. Ender's Game is a deeply moral work, and something that probably still helps young budding SF fans fall (deeper) in love with the genre.
My only wish, when I was listening to your Audible pick, was that you had put him in a more complete context and mentioned his antigay views. It's not just that he has a few ugly beliefs that he quietly keeps; it's easy to discover lengthy rants that he has written and published. As has been pointed out time and again: if he had said these things about Jews or people of color, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
At any rate, Leo, I thought your Audible pick on this week's MacBreak Weekly was mighty fine, and it gave me a big smile on Muni this afternoon when I heard it. (Does anyone remember that Armistead Maupin's The Night Listener got its start as an audio serial on Slate.com?)
Hey Leo,
Just thought id say i saw nothing wrong with the episode. Call me weird but sometimes i love a good argument. Its one of the reasons i listen to cranky geeks..so technically it was like that..john and all. Keep up the good work and variety is the spice of life.. please don't get bland.